running - before or after stretchin excersizes.

Post questions and tips on how flexibility training fits with training for other abilities.

running - before or after stretchin excersizes.

Postby BOy2K » Jan 23, 2006 18:20

heya guys
ive just started back kickboxing after a few months break.
my stamina is not very good so im thinkin of doing a daily run
to improve my fitness.
thing is do i do this before or after my back/ab/leg strength excersizes?
im currently tryin to build up to isometrics so im just on the basics atm.
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Postby CrazyBoy » Jan 24, 2006 04:46

I believe that Mr Kurz advises in Stretching Scientfically (3rd edition) this and I quote:
""Work up on speed or technique before working on strength, work on strength before working on endurance". Violating this principle leads to chronic fatigue, overtraining or even injuries.""
So, I think this could be the answer to your question.
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Postby wynnema » Jan 24, 2006 05:53

Or put more simply run after weights, not before. Also dont do your strength training before kickboxing, try to leave at least 48 hours between - so that your recovery doesnt affect your kickboxing training.

You could do weights after kickboxing but would be better on a seperate day, depending on the intensity of your class.
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Postby mat » Jan 24, 2006 06:35

CrazyBoy wrote:I believe that Mr Kurz advises in Stretching Scientfically (3rd edition) this and I quote:
""Work up on speed or technique before working on strength, work on strength before working on endurance". Violating this principle leads to chronic fatigue, overtraining or even injuries.""
So, I think this could be the answer to your question.


I'm not sure this applies to within one single workout. I think what Mr. Kurz is suggesting here is that you perfect your technique over a period before you start a period of heavy strength training, and improve your strength first before starting a period of endurance training. I may be wrong though.

The title of the topic asks about stretching. If you go on a long run (1 hour run perhaps) then definitely do some light stretching (dynamic perhaps) before running and static stretching afterwards.

As for strength training/isometrics - I honestly wouldnt do this plus a one-hour run in one workout! a 5-10 min run is a good warmup for any training session, but a proper 1-hour run (or more) should definitely either be done on a different day to strength training, or, run in the morning, train in the evening, if you have time and are not getting too fatigued.

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Postby dragon » Jan 24, 2006 06:46

If you are new to endurance training then any workload(even a 2 mile run) may be strenuous for you.
With that in mind,and the fact that you are also trying to increase strength for isometrics,i'd perform endurance work on a seperate workout to strength work(the endurance workout preferably done the day/few days after the strength workout).
In SOST it says...

"Adding a relatively breif aerobic endurance exercise(a 3.2k[2 mile] run) at the end of a strength workout lowers strength gains by 10% compared to doing strength exercises only."


Dragon.
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Postby BOy2K » Jan 24, 2006 07:08

heya guys

wow thanks for all the replys :)
ok no runs on same day as strength excersizes gotcha.
what about the days im doin situps, rev crunches, supermans?

im just desperate to get fit again as i feel like im struggling at the moment
but i dont wanna blow it all by overdoing it.
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Postby dragon » Jan 24, 2006 07:15

BOy2K wrote:heya guys

wow thanks for all the replys :)
ok no runs on same day as strength excersizes gotcha.
what about the days im doin situps, rev crunches, supermans?


I guess that depends which workout you fit those exercises in to.If they are included in your martial arts workout or endurance workout then fine.

BOy2K wrote:im just desperate to get fit again as i feel like im struggling at the moment
but i dont wanna blow it all by overdoing it.


This is relative to what you are trying to get fit for.
There is a difference between getting fit enough to get through a kick boxing session without feeling sick and preparing for a 12x3minute professional boxing bout.

Dragon.
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Postby BOy2K » Jan 24, 2006 07:27

for the moment the main focus is to improve my stamina for training.
i go 2-3 times per week and the session is 1hour.
45mins of grade work
and 15mins stamina training (star jumps, pressups, situps, squat thrusts, jumping, etc)
im finding myself struggling and loosing form in the grade work and
fading out during stamina.
maybie its my own frustration adding to it.
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Postby dragon » Jan 24, 2006 07:38

If you wish to gain more anaerobic endurance for a class you could perform some of your exercises(running,punch bag drills,squat thrusts,etc) using Tabata or Fartlek.
You will find gains much faster than just jogging at a constant steady pace.

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Postby mat » Jan 24, 2006 07:49

dragon wrote:If you wish to gain more anaerobic endurance for a class you could perform some of your exercises(running,punch bag drills,squat thrusts,etc) using Tabata or Fartlek.
You will find gains much faster than just jogging at a constant steady pace.

Dragon.


No idea what Tabata or Fartlek is, but I can thoroughly recommend hill sprints. If you have 100-200 yards of road at a slight incline near your home (the steeper, the harder obviously) you could try this: run flat out uphill and walk back down catching your breath - 5 times. This is a seriously good workout, much quicker than going on a long run, and a couple of weeks of this, you'll be bouncing around your kickboxing class without breaking a sweat :)

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Postby BOy2K » Jan 24, 2006 07:51

thanks for the help dragon
as always :)
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Postby dragon » Jan 24, 2006 08:03

mat wrote:No idea what Tabata or Fartlek is


Fartlek is kinda like what you described.Interval training.With Fartlek it isn't as structured as "sprint up/walk down" and it can be done on any surface.
Fartlek:-Basically,jog 200 meters,walk 50 meters,sprint 20 meters,jog 10 meters,etc,etc.You just mix it up any way you want.
I've heard Fartlek also refered to as "lamp post running" too as you can measure the distances with lamp posts:-jog for 2 lamp posts,sprint for 3,etc.

Tabata:-Work full out(whether it's running,bag work,etc.) for 20 seconds,then complete rest for 10 seconds.This is repeated for 4 minutes each exercise.It's a great way to get a workout if you are short on time and it's very effective even if time isn't an issue and you just want a hard workout.
The important thing is not to pace yourself in the early stages.You must work "full bore" from the start.

This can make some people puke.

Dragon.
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Postby BOy2K » Jan 24, 2006 08:17

yeah i think this is the aproach im goin to take.

not pukin that is :? heh

i will keep you guys upto date with my progress.
thanks alot
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Postby Thomas Kurz » Jan 24, 2006 10:06

mat wrote:I'm not sure this applies to within one single workout.


It does--both to a single workout and to a microcycle (a cycle of workouts, usually lasting a week or less).

mat wrote:I think what Mr. Kurz is suggesting here is that you perfect your technique over a period before you start a period of heavy strength training, and improve your strength first before starting a period of endurance training. I may be wrong though.


Wrong. I suggest no such thing. This is the opposite of what the proper sequence of long-term training is. I described and explained the right sequence of exercises in a workout and in a weekly cycle workouts in every edition of Stretching Scientifically. Also, on the DVD Secrets of Stretching and in the book Science of Sports Training I described and explained the right sequence of exercises in a workout, in a weekly cycle workouts, and in a long-term training program.
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Postby Thomas Kurz » Jan 24, 2006 10:08

BOy2K wrote:yeah i think this is the aproach im goin to take.


Find out about what you are going to do, or put up with the consequences. Read about endurance and interval training in Science of Sports Training--so you do it right.
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