speed roundhouse question

Post questions and tips on agility in sport-specific movements, such as quick changes of technique, switching from one move to another in time with opponent's reaction.

speed roundhouse question

Postby jrlefty » Aug 31, 2005 09:37

I have always had a hard time performing consecutive alternating roundhouse kicks. Like throwing three roundhouses while walking forward (right, left, then right leg again). My speed while doing alternating roundhouses is ok but I never seem to be comfortable while doing them. I currently do several speed drills like alternating front kicks while standing and moving, performing the kicking movements with just the knees, and other kicking pad drills.

My question is, am I having such a hard time because the roundhouse kick that is done when performing alternating roundhouse kicks is different from a regular roundhouse kick (like what is explained in http://www.stadion.com/column_stretch7.html)? When I watch tae kwon doists who are very proficient in doing alternating roundhouse kicks, they seem to not chamber the leg at all and swing the leg toward the target almost like a front kick with a little angle to the foot to hit the target like a roundhouse.

I am currently researching different martial arts sites that deal with kicking combinations and trying to find a decent explanation of this "speed roundhouse kick" that I have been seeing. If my problem is because I do not understand completly this kicking technique, should I slow down from the speed training to learn this new technique or does anyone have other suggestions. Also are there similar techniques for speed with the other kicks like axe kick and spinning heel kick? I can perform these kicks well by themselves but i'm wondering if when you put these kicks together to form combinations will the technique change?

thanks in advance,

jrlefty
"If you love life do not waste time because time is what life is made of"-Bruce Lee
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Re: speed roundhouse question

Postby mat » Aug 31, 2005 09:50

jrlefty wrote:When I watch tae kwon doists who are very proficient in doing alternating roundhouse kicks, they seem to not chamber the leg at all and swing the leg toward the target almost like a front kick with a little angle to the foot to hit the target like a roundhouse.


I am not a taekwondo-ist, but this sounds like very sloppy technique. I don't find alternating roundhouse kicks any harder than repeated kicks on the same leg. Are you quite sure these people are not performing a completely different type of kick?

If not, sounds to me that either you have been doing roundhouse kicks incorrectly in the first place, or maybe improving your leg strength and control will make them less uncomfortable?

Cheers,
Mat
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Postby dragon » Aug 31, 2005 09:57

In Master Hee Il Cho's book,The Complete Master's Kick,he describes a conventional roundhouse kick and a kick i believe he calls the 45 degree roundhouse(or maybe the angular roundhouse.Been a while since i read it).This is similar to the kick you describe(the front kick with a "twist").

I would imagine the speed with which you can fire off these alternating kicks depends on how well you plant your foot back down on the ground ready for the next kick and the speed(or maybe strength?) that you can twist your hips.
Most of Pavel's books on flexibility show a technique he calls "belly dancing" that russian martial artists practice.This teaches you the different positions for tilting your pelvis.

When we practice multiple kicks/combinations the emphasis is on balance and the correct body position for the next kick you're going to throw.

By it's nature though of twisting one way and then changing direction rapidly to twist the other way,i would imagine would always feel less natural than other combinations(alternating front kicks for example).

I just think that some top martial artists are good at making things look easy.

Dragon.
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Re: speed roundhouse question

Postby jrlefty » Aug 31, 2005 10:44

mat wrote:I am not a taekwondo-ist, but this sounds like very sloppy technique. I don't find alternating roundhouse kicks any harder than repeated kicks on the same leg. Are you quite sure these people are not performing a completely different type of kick?


I know what your saying. Throwing regular alternating roundhouse kicks is not a problem for me its just that many people who are proficient at it can throw their roundhouse kicks at a tempo much faster then throwing regular rear leg roundhouse kicks. The best way I can describe the speed of these kicks is to snap your fingers three times. That is the speed that three alternating consecutive roundhouse kicks are thrown and it seems impossible to do when I commit my hip to the roundhouse kick like what is described in the columns. To closely resemble the speed of how my teachers show it, I must hold back my hip and throw the kick more like a front kick (the same way I explained).

I do believe that, yes, it would be considered sloppy technique if thats how your throw a reqular roundhouse kick one at a time and I hate seeing roundhouse kicks like that done in tae kwon do tournaments (which is why I never compete) but I would like to increase the speed of my kicking combinations and finding it hard with following the techniques that I was taught for doing them by themselves.

dragon wrote:In Master Hee Il Cho's book,The Complete Master's Kick,he describes a conventional roundhouse kick and a kick i believe he calls the 45 degree roundhouse(or maybe the angular roundhouse.Been a while since i read it).This is similar to the kick you describe(the front kick with a "twist").


I will definitely check this book out. I have found several sources that talk about this type of roundhouse and understand everything you say about making the next kick faster with training the hips and fast planting of the supporting foot. But I still wonder would it be more beneficial to go back and drill this new roundhouse technique before I try to add it to my speed training because my natural tendency is to commit my hip into each roundhouse which kills the speed for the combination kicks.

thanks,

jrlefty
"If you love life do not waste time because time is what life is made of"-Bruce Lee
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Re: speed roundhouse question

Postby dragon » Aug 31, 2005 11:57

jrlefty wrote:
mat wrote:I am not a taekwondo-ist, but this sounds like very sloppy technique. I don't find alternating roundhouse kicks any harder than repeated kicks on the same leg. Are you quite sure these people are not performing a completely different type of kick?


I know what your saying. Throwing regular alternating roundhouse kicks is not a problem for me its just that many people who are proficient at it can throw their roundhouse kicks at a tempo much faster then throwing regular rear leg roundhouse kicks. The best way I can describe the speed of these kicks is to snap your fingers three times. That is the speed that three alternating consecutive roundhouse kicks are thrown and it seems impossible to do when I commit my hip to the roundhouse kick like what is described in the columns. To closely resemble the speed of how my teachers show it, I must hold back my hip and throw the kick more like a front kick (the same way I explained).

I do believe that, yes, it would be considered sloppy technique if thats how your throw a reqular roundhouse kick one at a time and I hate seeing roundhouse kicks like that done in tae kwon do tournaments (which is why I never compete) but I would like to increase the speed of my kicking combinations and finding it hard with following the techniques that I was taught for doing them by themselves.



A boxer can throw an uppercut,throw a hook,and any punch in between.As long as the same rules to throwing the punch correctly have been applied(guard up,no swinging,crisp technique,etc) it's not a sloppy technique,it's perfectly valid.Some of these punches have been used so often that they've been given their own name-angled hook,inner hook,shovel hook,etc.

Sadly with martial arts this doesn't seem to be the case.You throw a front kick or you throw a roundhouse kick-there is no hybrid that's valid.
If you are performing a kick for a grading or a display perfect technique should be applied.If you are fighting,any technique that drops your opponent is effective.

I think there is a difference between a technique that is sloppy or lazy and one that is just unconventional.

jrlefty wrote: But I still wonder would it be more beneficial to go back and drill this new roundhouse technique before I try to add it to my speed training because my natural tendency is to commit my hip into each roundhouse which kills the speed for the combination kicks.


I would say yes,it is better and drill the new technique.
The last thing you want to do is commit yourself to a technique at full speed/power that you can't abort if it doesn't quite feel right.
The torque on your hips/lower back would be quite intense if your leg arcs to far and the damage could be severe to your knee if your body gets pulled round without pivoting on your supporting foot.

Dragon.
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Re: speed roundhouse question

Postby jrlefty » Sep 01, 2005 15:51

dragon wrote: A boxer can throw an uppercut,throw a hook,and any punch in between.As long as the same rules to throwing the punch correctly have been applied(guard up,no swinging,crisp technique,etc) it's not a sloppy technique,it's perfectly valid.Some of these punches have been used so often that they've been given their own name-angled hook,inner hook,shovel hook,etc.

Sadly with martial arts this doesn't seem to be the case.You throw a front kick or you throw a roundhouse kick-there is no hybrid that's valid.
If you are performing a kick for a grading or a display perfect technique should be applied.If you are fighting,any technique that drops your opponent is effective.

I think there is a difference between a technique that is sloppy or lazy and one that is just unconventional.


I totally agree with you and I should've made that more clear in my previous post.

dragon wrote:I would imagine the speed with which you can fire off these alternating kicks depends on how well you plant your foot back down on the ground ready for the next kick and the speed(or maybe strength?) that you can twist your hips.


When you mentioned this, I decided to just work on my technique for just double roundhouse kick. I just did not want to mess with my form for the regular roundhouse kick and I believe it might be better for what I am trying to accomplish. Again we are shown double roundhouse kicks at my school but are never really given a proper sequence of learning it or a breakdown of how its done, just watch, mimic and drill until you have sloppy technique.

With your suggestions, I started worked more on using my entire body for each kick but in a different way. Usually I am used to commiting my body into the impact of the kick then relaxing the kicking leg, but now with double roundhouse kicks I commit my body to throw the legs and hips into the target then straight down into the floor to prepare for the next kick AND most importantly shift my hips. So when I throw a double roundhouse, the first leg kicks the target then is immediately gets forced down to the floor to help force my hips to twist my second leg to the target. This is also where I always screwed up. I would over throw my hip and relax the first kicking leg to much and not using it with my entire body to propel my hip for the next kick. I relied to much on my hips and back to just torque up the other leg to kick and just place the first kicking leg to the ground. Understanding this has dramaticaly improved the speed of my double roundhouse kicks.

So basically, if I want to have better double or triple roundhouse kicks then I have to start by breaking the habit of relaxing after each kick then work on using the whole body to control the hips for the roundhouse kicks. Hopefully more technique training for double roundhouse kicks will work out this kink in my kicking combinations. I kinda knew this in the back of my head, but having someone tell me this has now made me realize and, most importantly, understand it. I also believe my problem is I definitely need to find a better martial arts school.

thank you,

jrlefty
"If you love life do not waste time because time is what life is made of"-Bruce Lee
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Re: speed roundhouse question

Postby dragon » Sep 02, 2005 05:07

jrlefty wrote:So basically, if I want to have better double or triple roundhouse kicks then I have to start by breaking the habit of relaxing after each kick then work on using the whole body to control the hips for the roundhouse kicks.


I used to perform my kicks the same way(and maybe that's how traditional martial arts kicks should be thrown).

When i changed martial arts it was pointed out to me that just relaxing the leg after each kick also gives your opponent more time to grab the leg,push you,sweep you,etc.
The goal i was given was to retract the leg(either into guard or placement for the next kick) as fast as possible.

I also checked in the Hee Il Cho book:-It's called a 45 degree roundhouse.I'm not sure if this is because the leg comes up at a 45 degree angle(as opposed to straight across in the conventional roundhouse) or because you only turn your body 45 degrees.He mentions both.

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